Talk:Klyros Language

Just thought I'd open this discussion so that there could be communication between people who are working on this language. -bguy

Usage of Kefaos

I think it would be good to expand upon this section, but I am not sure how I would do so. Any ideas? -bguy

Knubixos

The only use for Knubixos I can think of is signifying that word is someone's signature. Are there any other uses anyone can think of because that? -bguy

Well, it can be used as punctuation like end of sentence or end of paragraph or something. --Grigori 17:59, 20 May 2009 (PDT)

In the typography section it says that there is no punctuation, just spaces for end of sentences and half spaces for end of words, and even those are optional. -bguy

Konos and Kzanos morphology

It looks like it is now required strongly to specify strict morphology of konos and kzanos. There must be a set of rules that can at least clearly define word class and the root of it. As we have some material on it I think that word class is to be defined by one prefix, sometimes two. I strongly recommend not to implement other types of prefixes.

Otherwise there will be no language but mess of things.

For now I start to look at current honoring "wo-" prefix with indignation.

Also for konos there can be several of them derived from single ksin. It should be some sub-class suffix I think. We now have only "-san" and "-sin". It should be more. I think something for place where the action takes place, result of it maybe. I wonder if we could you Hrothgart's ideograms qu, qa etc. It still shall be considered and discussed.

--Grigori 05:27, 21 May 2009 (PDT)

    Perhaps prefixes should be reserved for word class as you said, and also very important descriptors, so it would work as a title of degree. For example, ksiblimwo would mean "a brother I honor" while kwosiblim means "an honorable brother that you should honor as well". This would allow for more word diversity, and if it is noted that the practice is mostly for poetic effect, it would take care of the multitudes of prefixes that are derived from suffixes.

-bguy

Once again, the potential difficulty that we could face in further developing is to define the root. For example kwosiblim is "wo" the root or "sib"?

I've been thinking for quite some time on idea of special silent words that are used to split honoring prefixes/suffixes from the main.

Like ksiblim-wo instead of ksiblimwo and wo-ksiblim instead of kwosiblim. Much more clear for me. Being silent word it show have no sounds of it own but while spelling maybe it could mean little bit longer pause between syllables. It would however look like Japanese transliteration. You know, Somebody-kun, Someone-sama :).

--Grigori 04:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

- Sounds reasonable. Would there be an ideogram to represent this, or would it be limited to transliteration? Also would it be a strict requirement for grammar, or used as needed for differing situations?

- Ideogram will be better I think. Or maybe two - for splitting the word core from (dis)honoring prefixes and suffixes. As for use. Well, it could be optional but still recommended. What would you think? --Grigori 23:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Knetos Morphology

In the current morphology of Knetos, you describe them as Net with a specific suffix. How does this show spatial relationships or other prepositions, and if it is just such, what is the purpose as these are already described in the Ksinos' suffixes? -bguy

It's just I cannot yet find good enough ideograms for spatial and temporal relations. For now there is only "netqo" - analogous to "at" in English. But for now there is no "from" or "to" knetos.

As for dublication... maybe we'll get rid of it later.

--Grigori 14:09, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Kzanos and desriptive ksinos?

It looks like Klyran now lacks kzanos. It is not about their number but about concept. For example how can we write "red house". I concern "red" now. There should be certain ksin as base of word "red". If it is "to be red" ksin then we need a whole class of ksinos of type "to be ..." (blue, kind, strong, gentle, shy, weak, etc.). And for that class kzanos starting with zan- are derived.

Otherwise we should change original idea of Klyran as verb-only-base language.

--Grigori

My opinion on this is that Kzanos would be a more figurative language. For example, "fuu" means to shroud or to hide, while "xufuu" could mean black. "Xunwos" (under the assumption Klyran blood is red) could be red, "xulim" sky blue, "xumil" ocean blue, etc. As this is a klyros language, association between colors and words don't have to "make sense" to the general population, as long as it "makes sense" to Klyros of the long ago when it was made. If you don't object to this, we could add to the Language page a list of colors and their words,

--Bguy 12:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

1. At least lets don't use "xu-" for descriptive kzanos. Let it be "zan-". "xu-" is for possessive.
2. It really would be complicated. So a ksin has meaning as verb and also as adverb/adjective if "zan-" is added to the beginning with little logical connection with the verb. It can save us much time on drawing ideograms of course but we'll for each ideogram make 2 such senses (verb & adverb/adjective).

--Grigori 04:51, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Sorry, I had a thought xu was descriptive for some reason.
2. It doesn't have to be complicated. We could have a list of 10 or so colors, and those would be the only colors (others would be like greenish-blue so a mix of two words). Not every word needs a separate descriptive. Zanbel just could mean "like a cry" or "crying" in gerund form (is it gerund?) and zanda could be "thankful".

--Bguy 13:36, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So be it. Still we need many adjectives so I'll soon change Vocabulary table. Well, we could need several kzanos derived from single root but for such we could use some sub-class suffixes. --Grigori 15:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

IF you use sub-class suffixes, perhaps it could be different senses, like sound, taste, sight, smell, touch... and maybe two more creative ones... --Bguy 18:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Lets leave it so far.--Grigori 16:27, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Grammar

How many tenses should Klyran have? Common has more then dozen, its quite complicated especially as many are not English-speakers.

Some languages have only past, present and future. Much simpler especially as many players use Common that way (like saying Present Simple "Person waves" instead of Present Progressive "Person is waving" or Present perfect "Person has waved").

I've already simplified this with the auxiliary word "a." (read under ksinos, there are a couple paragraphs about this) The only tenses are past, present, and future. In "Person is Waving" it would become "person waves" as in current grammar the Auxiliary is removed and there is no "ing" ending.

--Bguy 12:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, then few more to discuss:

There should be sort of conjunctive mood, imperative mood and infinitive. As for conjunctive mood I'd like it to be simple "-je" suffix. Dunno about infinitive, but for imperative we could make several possible suffixes. Like "asking" suffix, "begging" suffix, "commanding" one or even "threatening" one :).

Morethere we still should define aspects. Ok, no continuous one. What is left? Perfective and imperfective?

--Grigori 15:20, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I really like the moods idea. About the aspects, a few of your suffixes work as aspects, as using them when they are optional puts emphasis on them. To keep it simple, I'd suggest that all are optional as we have been doing. I don't believe Klyran needs to have a strict grammar, such as a subject-predicate order or the like. Klyran would be a language of major variance to represent different cultures, in this way, I believe that for every "complex" grammar rule, it has a defined, simplified, and negated versions to be able to be used. Such as with the suffixes for example. Lack of suffixes is "negated," sin and san only is "simplified," and all the others added in is the "defined." I think it works well this way.

--Bguy 16:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, anything can be actually optional if it can be defined from the context or actually is not something really important for sense core.

Lets think about mood. If the sentence have no subject then the only verb should be interpreted as one in imperative mood (as in English). There could be imperative mood suffix, but it is optional, to clarify whether it is begging, command or something else. If there is sequence of 2 verbs then the last can be considered as infinitive with no special particle "to" like in English. But still, I'd prefer simple grammar only with methods of clarifying. There should optional suffix for infinitive. And for conjunctive mood... there must be a suffix, not optional otherwise you won't distinguish it with indicative mood, so let it be "-je".

However optionality and non-strict grammar rules clearly must have limits. We can't violate subject-predicate order, there would be no difference in "I rob you" and "You rob me". There are of course languages with no strict word order, but they have grammatical cases of words. Believe me, when I say we don't want it here.

--Grigori 01:20, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Textbook

Well, the language becomes more and more formed. And with it more and more grammatical components of it are described in the article. It becomes difficult to understand it. We need a textbook. "Learning Klyran for dummies"... He-he :D. --Grigori 01:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I was actually going to write this and try to submit it to Jayose Library if the Explorers are still open for submissions. --Bguy 13:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Common words

As Klyros have lived for so long in Yliakum, they need to be able to write Common words in Klyran. Even if we consider Klyran language as abandoned one and recently recovered and re-learned there is still need in writing at least names. There are two ways I see:

1. To imitate the spelling with Klyran ideograms. Not a good way.
2. To have new class of ideograms - Common liters.

I think the second is better but it is going to take some time. I will work on it. --Grigori 01:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This is ok, but I think its only purpose is for translating names out of Klyran origin and for Klyran to common transliteration. I think a simplified alphabet would do the trick. Perhaps 14 letters? (You can easily get this by combining repeat letters like g and j; c, k, and x; b and v, e and i; ch and sh; etc.)

--Bguy 13:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't get it. How can I rid of 12 liters? Ok, instead of "x" I get "ks", "v" instead of "w", "q"="ku", But what is with the rest?--Grigori 07:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

As I said, simplified. Here is one right now. A, C, D, E, F, G, L, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, V, SH. 16 letters is enough. Any word using letters out of these can be simplified. Butterfly -> Voterfla. It sounds awkward, but it will due for its limited use. --Bguy 13:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)